I think I need to back off and switch more slowly. After Lizzie’s barf-o-rama this afternoon, now after leaving the house for a few hours for dinner at Dave’s parent’s house, we came home to the NASTIEST pile of d*arrhea that I have ever seen. Since Lizzie is in a crate, we know it wasn’t her. My guess is Leo, because there were again many parts of crunched up beetles mixed in and I don’t *think* that Brady eats beetles. At least this time it wasn’t on my carpet, and he was actually kind enough to put it on a crate pad that we had on the floor so I could just pick it up and rinse. 
) Plus, Brady is the one going through the least amount of diet change because I’m still using up the last half of his bulldog kibble, and just adding stuff to it, whereas the other two I switched to the Evo.
I’ve done lots of diet switching before, but this is probably the most radical change. Either that, or the beetle infestation from last night didn’t agree with their delicate stomachs. 
#1 by HamCan on June 23, 2007 - 5:27 am
I’m guessin’ it’s the beatles, some of those buggers can be pretty noxious. Some of them write pretty good songs too
Your puppies could join this group.
http://www.planetscott.com/babes/faq.asp
#2 by C-Myste on June 23, 2007 - 2:12 pm
Eww, where do you find these things.
Raw feeding gurus do warn about barf or dire-rear at the change of diet, but that hasn’t been my experience.
I would blame either the beetles or the evo. Or perhaps it’s a quantity issue. I thik that I’m going to have to adjust the volume even higher for my guys.
#3 by C-Myste on June 23, 2007 - 2:12 pm
Eww, where do you find these things.
Raw feeding gurus do warn about barf or dire-rear at the change of diet, but that hasn’t been my experience.
I would blame either the beetles or the evo. Or perhaps it’s a quantity issue. I thik that I’m going to have to adjust the volume even higher for my guys.
#4 by Anonymous on June 23, 2007 - 4:15 pm
I work with a microbiologist (PhD in microbiology) who also happens to be a dog owner/lover and we’ve talked extensively about the raw food debate. He thinks it’s a public health hazard of the greatest proportions.
Dogs may or may not get sick from salmonella, toxoplasmomosis, etc. but they will shed it in their feces and vomit.
Just a few things I found in a couple of minutes of searching about this subject:
http://www.komu.com/satellite/SatelliteRender/KOMU.com/ba89ae05-c0a8-2f11-0043-9d2d9cb31bfe/5bc0fc98-c0a8-2f11-01b7-56cb53e76302
From an FDA report on pre-packaged raw food
(http://www.fda.gov/cvm/guidance/dguide122.pdf):
“Nutritional adequacy – Manufacturers of products intended to be offered as the sole source of
nutrition for pets should substantiate the nutritional adequacy of these products. There is
significant risk of nutritional deficiency or excess when such products are improperly
formulated. Calcium and phosphorus are often deficient nutrients in foods based on raw meat,
and should be supplemented accordingly. In addition to the risk of physical trauma or
impaction, large pieces of bone may not allow for efficient digestion and absorption, possibly
resulting in nutritional deficiency when bone is intended to serve as a source of dietary calcium.
Essential fatty acids and some trace minerals may also be deficient. Alternatively, foods based
on raw meat could be excessive in vitamin A if liver is used as a major ingredient and cause
vitamin A toxicity if fed for extended periods of time. Other fat soluble vitamins may be either
excessive or deficient as well.
Although there have been claims made that raw meat foods are superior with respect to
providing adequate nutrition than other products substantiated to be complete and balanced, the
FDA is not aware of scientific evidence to support such claims.”
#5 by Traci on June 23, 2007 - 4:34 pm
I kind of lean towards the beetles too, because while the stool here is in general SOFTER, we’ve not had a problem with dire rear (i like that!) but only once… one dog, one time. and my switch was dirastic for Kota and Sedona… one day they were getting kibble, and the next they got 1/3 cup of kibble and 1/4 lb of meat. But then all dogs ARE different. I hope you find the source of your probems
#6 by C-Myste on June 24, 2007 - 4:40 pm
Who is “anonymous”? I like it better when I know who I am talking to.
I did more than “a couple of minutes of searching” before deciding to give it a try, believe me.
And we should trust the FDA why?
#7 by Anonymous on June 26, 2007 - 2:59 am
I am just someone concerned about the public health risks associated with raw food diets. It has been shown that dogs shed bacterial and viral particles i.e. salmonella, toxoplasmososis, etc. in their feces and vomit and salivia. These particles end up in houses, in yards, etc. While most adults are careful about personal hygiene, many children are not. Therefore children may go play in a yard that had dog feces in it, and end up getting salmonella, toxoplasmosis, etc. A dog may lick them in the face and they may get salmonella.
http://www.bi-mar.com/pomeranianBarf.asp
I thought this was an interesting link and mentions how some of the pathogens can cause problems in the dogs themselves. It also talks about other potential issues associated with raw food such as pancreatitis and kidney problems.
#8 by C-Myste on June 26, 2007 - 4:51 am
Hello again, still anonymous. Actually we did recently suffer a “kidney problem” in our extended dog family. That was before any of us were feeding raw and was in fact what prompted me to start researching and what led me to my decision.
In our particular household, we are two people in their mid-50’s with no grandchildren so your caveats about children do not apply. We are being quite careful with hygiene, just as we are when preparing chicken or other items for ourselves. I agree that stubbydog will need to take suitable precautions with her youngsters.
For my own dogs I am not supplementing with any additional fat. We had a Pembroke years ago who had recurrent bouts of pancreatitis. He was on commercial dog foods with no supplementation. I know to be cautious in that respect.
Having had dogs over the many years who suffered with food-related problems including kidney failure, pancreatitis, and multiple allergies and who were all on purportedly high-quality kibbles I still feel that my experimentation with a switch to raw is justified. If I find that I do encounter problems, I will report them honestly as well.
#9 by StubbyDog on June 26, 2007 - 12:09 pm
Yup and there is a reason why I have hesitated to feed raw chicken. It is also why (even before feeding anything raw) I always pick up the yard when we are out there with Charlie. In the summertime my yard is usually spotless because we’re outside every evening playing. Obviously no solution is perfect, but we all do what we can no matter WHAT we feed, right?
Carolyn isn’t the only one who has done research.
#10 by StubbyDog on June 26, 2007 - 12:09 pm
Yup and there is a reason why I have hesitated to feed raw chicken. It is also why (even before feeding anything raw) I always pick up the yard when we are out there with Charlie. In the summertime my yard is usually spotless because we’re outside every evening playing. Obviously no solution is perfect, but we all do what we can no matter WHAT we feed, right?
Carolyn isn’t the only one who has done research.
#11 by penni on June 26, 2007 - 1:11 pm
I have divided my yard with a pretty little 30″ high iron fence (Lowe’s carries the sections called Empire). The dogs have independent access from the house only to that part of the yard. When we are all outside, including my 5-1/2 year old granddaughter, the dogs may come play in the people yard.
I am not impressed by anyone who must anonymously comment on someone’s else’s blog. Seems to me if you have something important to say, you should own up to it.
I’ve been feeding raw for two years this September. I have had no vet visits except for shots, spay/neuter, hip x-rays, and Therapy dog health certification. The dogs look great and feel great. Having any pets poses a risk at some level to people and to other animals.
As a long time German Shepherd breeder would advertise, “Records live, opinions die.” Statistically, there is, to my knowledge, no evidence that raw-fed dogs pose any greater health hazard to the people around them than do kibble fed dogs. But boy are there a lot of opinions!
#12 by Traci on June 26, 2007 - 3:40 pm
Well said Penni!
#13 by psicolst on June 26, 2007 - 6:03 pm
Thank you for GSD breeder quote, Penni
Anonymous can only claim to “know somebody” who has an opinion and quote other negative posts, but offers nothing original, making me suspect it has a hidden agenda. Without identity and facts to back up what it posts any input it had to this discussion was a waste of pixels!
Now can we please return to the original subject of the digestibility of beetles?
I don’t see them listed as ingredients on any of the kibble bags still on hand, not that you can believe the labels on the bags anyway. I conclude from this that we should not include any southern beetles as a supplement when trying to find the ideal raw food. A few northern beetles might be ok, but only in moderation.
#14 by Jenn on June 29, 2007 - 8:49 pm
I will add to the thought that it was the beetles. In this part of the west, we have found that grass hoppers cause severe digestive upset. However, their much uglier, larger, nastier cousins, Mormon Crickets, do not. Seems to vary by bug.